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Jeff Kaplan

On the list of issues to pay attention to are:

Is accessibility for disabled adequate? (an issue for the moment).

Have I made the business case to political leaders and other stakeholders?

How do I ensure that open standards become a requirement for ICT procurements by public agencies?

Also, I note that the MN definition of "open standards" wisely omits one element often seen -- "reasonable and non-discriminatory terms" which is a veritable slippery slope to new kinds of lock-in. It also unwisely omits consideration of usage in the marketplace (provided all other openness elements are still met). Andy Updegrove blogged about this today, and rightly so.

orcmid

I can't figure out any way that the Open Office XML going through ECMA TC45 will come out with any more deficiencies as to Minnesota points (5), (6), and (8) than will the current Open Document Format. In fact, the ECMA draft definition of strict compliance seems far stronger that the ODF equivalent.

What, specifically, do you see that has the ECMA TC45 Office Open XML Document Interchange Specification necessarily fail at (5), (6), and (8)?

Sam

orcmid-

May I encourage you to read my post, "WMF & the ECMA Spec," for detail on the proprietary dependencies being implemented in Microsoft's format?

These defeat the definition of "open" as now given by Minnesota.

As for the points...

Point 5)
"...complete semantics..."
This language would be a problem for MSECMAXML if it the format includes binary or encrypted information -- such as DRM -- which fails the other requirements here.

Point 6)
"...extensions are documented..."
MSECMAXML -- the "ECMA Spec" -- reveals system calls to Office & Windows...much of which is undocumented. There may be other relevant examples I'm not mentioning.

Point 8)
DRM again...it's a no-no as presently specified.

orcmid

I checked your WMF & the ECMA Spec post. WMF is a line-drawing format of course, so it is not equivalent to JPEG (which is patent encumbered, but you knew that, right?). My understanding that the preferred form for images will be PNG or maybe TIFF and I'm not sure why some non-WMF vector graphics form is not being used for OOX as a new default within the strict compliance case. I haven't been following the SVG story.

But, clearly, they need a way to make completely legal, fully-specified OOX documents where only openly-specified/-standardized formats are required. I figure they'll fix it. (Let's not talk about the patent encumbrance on GIF either, OK.)

I don't think the issue of storing images in binary is a concern, so long as the format is public and unencumbered (e.g., TIFF without proprietary compression schemes).

PS: In the text search I just did of the TC45 base document, WMF only shows up in examples and e.g.s. Now, how people profile requirements to deal with legacy uses is not implied but some work may be called for to make OOX ready for fully-open usages. I checked the document for "metafile" also and the two occurrences that came up are both benign and could have been replaced by a different term(related to legacy use of Ole and advice on rendering thumbnails).

PPS: This is certainly a great area to pay attention to, especially in perfecting a way to ensure that one can limit/convert files to use only open+public formats in use cases where that matters for interchange and for preservation.

PPPS: I think the connection of an exploit against the WMF imager implementation (now corrected) and the use of WMF (or any image format) in document interchange is a reach too far. We've had malformed-JPEG exploits too.

orcmid

We're talking about a document format, right? Where are there reference to APIs in non-illustrative materials in the ECMA TC45 base document? (I imagine the Apple members will help root those puppies out, but what is the context for any that are there?)

orcmid

I'm baffled by point 5. There are complete semantics for TIFF, which is a pretty purely binary format, with compression. Is there a confusion about what semantics means in the context of computer formats?

Also, a format can be completely defined and have digital signatures and encryption (as in the XML-DSIG approach). ODF packages can be encrypted too. This doesn't seem to be contrary to open formats with open specifications. It might be contrary to a particular use case, and that should be regulated in the situation of use, seems to me.

I have no idea how DRM creeps into OOX, but I see where digital signatures are provided and encryption is designed for restricted materials. Is encryption taken to mean DRM or are you seeing something explicitly specific to DRM (as with media streams)?

This raises an interesting case. Do you insist that such uses of an open-format be impossible or simply that they not be required and can be made impermissible in particular usage situations?

I think this last is an important area to explore with regard to all broad-use formats for document interchange.

[Done for now. The IRS has some document formats I must go honor now.]

Sam

orc-

You have some interesting questions that deserve sincere answers. I know there will be many people interested.

This is a physically poor forum for it, so I will try to address them in a useful format.

Sam

I'll unfairly address your questions with a few questions...

Among the general questions I would urge readers to consider is, for example, what would a Linux-based office suite implementation of MSECMAXML do with system calls like WMF that are intended to invoke processes in Windows? Implemented on a non-Windows platform these are dead processes at best, vulnerabilities at worst; but a truly open format would not have calls that work for one vendor.

Also, what of DRM? This is a binary blob sitting in the midst of a file that non-Windows platforms cannot swallow; it defeats the purpose of an open standard format.

One response from a Microsoft developer I remember seeing once was that an OpenOffice could maybe just delete the binary and carry on. This, however, would impact the Microsoft license...and there goes some data. This is a non-starter.

orcmid

I agree about finding a better form for addressing some of these questions.

I don't understand your reference to Windows Metafile (WMF) as if it is an API or system call. It is a data format used to carry graphics and that was the only use I saw in the examples that I found in the ECMA TC45 draft. I think there is some kind of mechanism that allowed software-behaviors to be invoked (like macros elsewhere perhaps, I'm being lazy here and not going to look it up), so obviously one would want to ignore those in an interchange situation, and preferably prohibit them. I guess we should find out exactly what that is about.

The presence of DRM has nothing to do with being a binary blob though it certainly has to do with not being able to access the encoded content without a suitable license or other claim check. This is different than encryption for privacy and limitation of access purposes.

And either way, are you saying that should be impossible or that it is inappropriate in public documents used in eGovernment? (I assume you won't mind if the CIA and NSA use OOX, though?)

We need to sharpen our terms here. But I think the bigger question is whether or not the format should prohibit certain uses or there would be prohibitions by the parties to interchange under particular conditions, and having it be easy to establish and confirm satisfaction of such restrictions.

I think this matters, by the way, for all candidates for open standards to be applied under the conditions specified in the proposed Minnesota Information Architecture requirements and it is very valuable to consider this question independent of what those candidates are.

Sam

The question, orc, is what is appropriate behavior of an open standard file format.

There happens to be a living, working, reference implementation of one already: OpenDocument in OpenOffice.

No one will ever know what MSECMAXML will do until there is a reference implementation, with open code that people can look at -- in its entireity.

This is why the Microsoft choice to launch its own standard is odd. They would not do so in order just to re-create another ODF. Their principal motivation to preserve special behavior which favors their app & OS platforms.

The ECMA specification will tell.

Two things are necessary: 1) interpretation of the points in the Minnesota Bill; and 2) an ongoing re-examination of what Microsoft is delivering in the ECMA Specification.

orcmid

I will concede that OO.o is a demonstration of an implementation, and that's important. That it qualifies as a reference implementation is not clear to me. (They use non-standard extensions, for example. They actually have to at this point.)

I certainly agree that there should be on-going scrutiny of the ECMA TC45 drafts and we should sharpen what the open-ness test is in different settings and how that is handled in practical realities with multiple offerings of an interchange format.

orcmid

I just ran into this blog which speaks about some uses of encryption and digital signatures that are rather critical in business and government contexts: http://blogs.msdn.com/recman/

The minute the private key used in a digital signature is compromised, every use of that key is suspect and repudiatable.

Of course the public key gets to be known, and the algorithm for the encryption is also known, but the private key must remain a secret and digital signatures must be possible in electronic documents in order to preserve their authenticity and prevent manipulation.

This should all be permissible in Minnesota. I can't imagine how it couldn't be.

Do you find this unacceptable? I'm trying to refine the calibration around "DRM" and also binary but understood content.

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